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Power expectations for adding 3L valves to my hybrid.

SicSE

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
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Location
Kennesaw, GA
I have a set of SVT heads that I've been thinking about putting 3L valves into. But a lot of the hybrids I've been reading about that were built with 3L valves, even with SVT cams, didn't put down much more power untuned than my hybrid. Are my expectations are a bit high for the larger valves, (+10hp and tq at least), and SVT cams, (+5hp at least)? Because that would put me at least to 215/210 untuned, which seems high compared to most other numbers I've seen.

Also, I'm pretty sure no one has, but I'll ask anyway... has anyone upgraded a running hybrid to 3L valves?
 
I have a set of SVT heads that I've been thinking about putting 3L valves into. But a lot of the hybrids I've been reading about that were built with 3L valves, even with SVT cams, didn't put down much more power untuned than my hybrid. Are my expectations are a bit high for the larger valves, (+10hp and tq at least), and SVT cams, (+5hp at least)? Because that would put me at least to 215/210 untuned, which seems high compared to most other numbers I've seen.

Also, I'm pretty sure no one has, but I'll ask anyway... has anyone upgraded a running hybrid to 3L valves?

are you using an SVT ecu or a SE? how about UIM and LIM?
 
This 3l split-port UIM;

Picture279.jpg



And this 3L LIM;

Picture242.jpg
 
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I can see you've got a decent bit of work into those, but unfortunately, I believe those will be the bottle neck in your setup. I think you've backed yourself into a bit of a corner actually if you're going for much higher output. If you're using split port heads, you are best off maintaining the split all the way up through the LIM and UIM. The only reason for blending the two like many do, is for convenience at the expense of some power throughout the low and mid-range especially, but I suspect even at the top end due to lack of any coherent helmholtz tuning.

Ideally, you would want to custom make a manifold, but that's a LOT of work. You could take an SVT or even an SE manifold, and have the plenums cut and rewelded to add a little volume, and then have it double extrude honed to open up the runners a bit to match the larger 3L valves. Of course you'd still want to run an IMRC in that case as well.

Otherwise you're better off starting with some 3L heads, and either running higher compression pistons or decking the head a bit if you are dead set on the higher compression. The pistons would be the preferred choice, as I'm not even sure you can deck these heads enough without screwing up cam timing (I've never checked, so I don't know).

If you go with the oval port, then you would want to use one of the later designed manifolds that best take advantage of the oval port. Like the ST220, or the 05+ Escape, or even the Mazda/Fusion manifolds may work. The runner lengths, runner taper, and plenum volumes are much better on these later manifold designs. The 09+ manifolds are even better, but they need the 09+ heads as well to work correctly, and that will get expensive to sort out.

Personally, I would like to see someone go all out with the split-port design. I think it has better potential, and so did the 2.5L world challenge engine builders at Kinetics.
 
I believe those will be the bottle neck in your setup. I think you've backed yourself into a bit of a corner actually if you're going for much higher output. If you're using split port heads, you are best off maintaining the split all the way up through the LIM and UIM.
So you would expect a power increase if I put the SVT UIM and LIM w/secondaries back on? Seems like that should come with increased potential.

Custom intake, adding plenum volume to the SVT UIM, further extrude honing, and oval-port configurations are not options I'm willing to consider at this point.

Also, for you or anyone else with appropriate experience, what do you think in regards to blending the valve guides when porting? I DO have guide reamers to clean up the stem hole afterward, but I'm not sure how badly I would be compromising strength, stability and reliability if I were to grind the guide down, or even just massage it's shape... especially since I don't know how much guide is buried in the head.
 
The SVT manifold would still work well, but its just a little undersized as it is for the rest of the setup you are going with. I don't know for sure if it would make more power than your current modified setup or not, but I think it would be worth a try. But that's just me.

Don't blend the valve guides. The valves have side loading induced in them from the RFF, and from the combustion chamber events etc. If you taper it down, you will end up breaking bits off of the tapered end, and the valve won't be properly supported, plus it really won't improve flow much anyway.
 
Thinking about this more, I can't figure out why a widely accepted rule doesn't seem to apply here. When comparing manifolds, typically, the one with the larger plenum/s and shorter, straighter runners would be expected to have more potential in the upper RPM's, while sacrificing some low-to-midrange power. In this case, that would be my current setup. Does this theory lose all merit when a dual-plane manifold is involved?

I just can't wrap my mind around how the SVT manifold could produce more power in the upper RPM ranges.

I've read a decent amount about helmhotz tuning, but I was under the impression that it does much more for the lower RPM range, (<4K), than the upper. I understand that's where the different length runners come into play but how do the pressure waves of the longer runners not interfere with those of the shorter ones, once the secondaries are open? What RPM are the shorter runners tuned for?

I'm still stuck envisioning restricted airflow up-top due to the small plenums and the complicated path the air has to take to get to the cylinder. :confused:

Oh yeah, and I can't find my SVT LIM to even plan a comparison dyno-day. Our scavenger of a clean-up guy steals everything he thinks he can get away with taking... then says he doesn't know what you're talking about when you ask him about missing sh*t. :nonono:
 
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